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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Picocalc done properly?
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| matherp Guru  Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10107 |
Is there really a big market for this sort of thing? If there is why not do it properly? Single board that can be fully built by JLC using my standard component blocks from various boards RP2350, 16Mb Flash, 8Mb PSRAM Battery backed RTC I2S Audio with amp, speakers + headphone jack Battery with onboard charging and use when external power connected. 16-bit parallel display so fast Custom keyboard with 10x8 matrix scanned direct from the RP2350 so no tacky I2C faults Case design for resin print by JLC or home print Properly supported by standard MMBasic Everything open source and no profit The only bit that would require a bit of investment is the tooling for the keyboard. Looks like this would be about GBP1500 one-off for a similar keyboard to the PicoCalc and probably less for a membrane keyboard with click keys. The £1500 is a UK price I'm sure there are Chinese firms who could do this cheaper - haven't researched - and that would have to be amortised across a reasonable build volume - say 100 Interesting? |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4255 |
My opinion ... ... don't waste your time. It's all "make believe" and 80's "boys" with too much disposable income most of whom I expect are buying the PicoCalc as a bit of retail therapy and retro-computer nostalgia and will lose interest and move onto the "next shiny" pretty quickly. I suppose in a way I'm one of these (though I don't intend on buying a PicoCalc; I have enough paperweights already), but messing with MMBasic seems to be good for my mental health if not my sleeping time. ClockworkPi have made a business for themselves catering to this market and providing commercial looking products, glossy website and good marketing - all 3 things that we seem to be bad at here in the shed, and which your superior hardware design abilities are not going to "fix". And I don't condemn ClockworkPi for this, "good for them" is what I say, I just wish they'd be more careful with their software licensing and provide better software support in general. IMO if people want MMBasic in their pocket then MMBasic for Android is the answer. MMB4L takes me part of the way there, maybe one day I'll make the next two leaps, or maybe you will beat me to it ... I certainly don't plan on racing you. > Everything open source and no profit I'm not sure, but I think the ClockworkPi design is "supposed" to be open-source ... it's just much easier and not excessively expensive for those who are interested to buy from them. YMMV, Tom Edited 2025-05-01 23:07 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Gadgetguy Regular Member  Joined: 26/04/2025 Location: France Posts: 75 |
I would buy a better picocalc for lets say 2x the price of the current one. GBP 1500? Absolutely not. For usd 150 likely a good number could be sold I agree with you Tom about the target market (and yhat would be me too). But i estimate that that market is quite big (clockworkpi seems to be selling a good number of devices, and people are willing to wait a year or more for the uconsole) I would think there is definitely a market for a well designed and low cost manufactured handheld computing device (mmbasic or other language) it is just a question of finding the right team to do it (i have some experience in the area in case someone would want to action this) Edited 2025-05-01 23:53 by Gadgetguy |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10107 |
That's a one-off tooling cost to create what's required to make the keyboards in bulk. Assuming a run of 100 then that works out to GBP15 + the individual cost - say GBP10. |
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| Gadgetguy Regular Member Joined: 26/04/2025 Location: France Posts: 75 |
Wow. Lets partner up and turn this into a business! I am quite serious. We could raise the money via indigogo Edited 2025-05-01 23:55 by Gadgetguy |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10107 |
No chance - don't do this for money - the returns are too trivial to bother getting out of bed for. |
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| Gadgetguy Regular Member Joined: 26/04/2025 Location: France Posts: 75 |
Well i can take care of the money part. You just tell me what you expect to be rewarding for you? I have built a hardware company before, designed in Canada, manufactured in China Edited 2025-05-02 00:28 by Gadgetguy |
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| Carnifex Newbie  Joined: 02/07/2020 Location: United States Posts: 13 |
I am feeling a bit attacked here  .Unfortunately, I also think you are entirely correct. Clockworkpi products do have a tendency to create pretty resilient communities around them. However I think in the case of the PicoCalc, it will be a pretty divided community, and PicoMite will be one of many small subsets of that community. I think the majority of users will eventually migrate to using Picocalc_SD_Boot so they can choose what they want to use on the fly. |
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vegipete Guru Joined: 29/01/2013 Location: Canada Posts: 1124 |
SwissMicros seems to be successful with their line of reproduction HP calculators. And those are not cheap. With refinement, and a better keyboard (both layout and function), the PicoCalc could fill a similar role. As Thwill says, at the moment, nostalgianauts with cash to burn would seem to be to main audience. Visit Vegipete's *Mite Library for cool programs. |
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| gadgetjack Senior Member  Joined: 15/07/2016 Location: United States Posts: 169 |
My 2 cents say there is not much gained from those units. Other than a hard to type on keyboard , you don't get a lot. I am happy with the toys we have. |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: Netherlands Posts: 4943 |
Wauw, the large models are ver authentic hop calculators, but with titanium Shell. This exclusive pricing is not strange. Look what these plastic case original hp calculators cost second hand. This is very much a true value for money. Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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homa Guru Joined: 05/11/2021 Location: Germany Posts: 462 |
YES |
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| ville56 Senior Member Joined: 08/06/2022 Location: Austria Posts: 220 |
I'm so glad i still have my HP16C from the 1980s. It was working about 30 years with the first set of batteries. It is working still without any hitch, built for eternity. And my grandson is still not knowing why i don't calculate like he learns at school .... "2+3=5 so easy grandpa".... this "2 enter 3 + gives 5" is a bit impractical to him. But I love RPN. 73 de OE1HGA, Gerald |
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| toml_12953 Guru Joined: 13/02/2015 Location: United States Posts: 397 |
It all sounds great. I'd buy one. However, I'm not a typical user. You'd be competing against the $75.00 USD PicoCalc so you'd have to create a lot of buzz for such a device if you want to attract the kinds on numbers that would make it feasible. At £1500, there are a lot of much more powerful tiny computers available although they're not self-contained with screen and keyboard. If you ever do produce such a device at under $1K USD, let me know! |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4010 |
The £1500 is a one-off as already posted. The overall device would be quite cheap, near the $75 (but somewhat more). If there's the demand AND someone who wants to do the job (building, advertising, shipping, etc), which is in doubt. John Edited 2025-05-02 23:20 by JohnS |
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PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: Canada Posts: 529 |
It's one of those questions that nobody really knows the answer to until you build it. I wouldn't have thought there was a market for the Commander X16 or Spectrum Next - yet there is. Who is the end user for such a device? I would argue that it is somebody who does not have the time or knowledge to take one of the existing designs and turn it into a working computer. I know that sounds trivial to most of us, but there are steps involved (blowing firmware, putting software onto an SD card, 3D printing a case, sourcing the right monitor and keyboard etc.) that would be a barrier for many people. I think it might be very interesting for the Maximite community to dabble in "ready to run" solutions. There's a whole bunch of projects that people might appreciate. A PicoCalc, a CMM2 desktop, a distributed DIN rail mounted PicoMite PLC, a CMM2 arcade cabinet etc. That last one (the arcade cabinet) is something I have dabbled with. I think it would be fun to build either a JAMMA board or a fully integrated mini cabinet that contains joystick and screen. I like the idea of removing profit from the equation. However, I think there obviously has to be some sort of recouperation of costs for physical devices - which in turn needs some sort of buffer zone financially. I think the existing sales model covers that nicely - with distributers making a reasonable profit - balancing the costs per unit with consumer demand. The Open Source nature of the projects allowing others to manufacture the same units cheaper if possible. When it comes to projects that require minimum production runs or tooling, maybe one option would be to set up a development fund. Have a few sponsors chip in a couple of hundred bucks each (I'd happily chip in) to cover the initial development costs of the first product. Then have a honour system where for each sale of the unit, the sellers chip in $10 back to the fund to refill it and fund the next product? |
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| Gadgetguy Regular Member Joined: 26/04/2025 Location: France Posts: 75 |
The more I learn about MMBasic, the more I wish we could buy the "Picocalc done properly" proposed by matherp. Looking at the waitlist on the Clockworkpi forum it is very likely that there would be a healthy demand for it. Is there any way to explore how to turn the great concept into reality please? |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2415 |
the problem with the PicoCalc is that it is relatively expensive for a not-entirely-useful device, and is really not that different to a GAME*MITE with a small keyboard attached. personally, i'd like to see something with a 40x16 character display (which the 320x240 display used by Tom in the GAME*MITE can do) and a small 10x4 keyboard with its own controller that can generate the full set of VT key codes. something that could be built as a folding design so that it is the size of an HP95LX. however, the one thing required for this idea would be an internal editor that can fully and seamlessly handle lines longer than the screen width allows. cheers, rob :-) |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10107 |
Continuation lines now fully supported |
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| Gadgetguy Regular Member Joined: 26/04/2025 Location: France Posts: 75 |
Thank you for the reply. I do not argue at all about how useful such device is. All I know that many people would like to buy one at the price offered by uConsole (USD 75 + USD 25 for shipping). You mention the game*mite: is that something that one can buy ready to go and that accepts an external keyboard? Can you please point me in the right direction? |
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