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Forum Index : Windmills : Large plastic/pvc pipe for blades
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fillm Guru  Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
I have obtained a couple of lengths of large diameter plastic industrial pipe OD 315mm x ID 285mm x 15mm wall thickness . It is made by Eurapipe Aust and is grey in colour and the part no has ABS in it , so I dont think it is pvc . I thought before I start cutting I would ask if anyone has used this type of pipe for blades? It seems very strong and having 15mm of wall thickness should allow shapeing out towards the tip . I have 1 length 1400mm I was going to start with , The circumfrence is 1010mm if divide this into four sections approx 250mm and then cut those to give a blade 70mm @ Tip to 180mm @ base x 1400mm that would allow 8 blades , Open to sugestions ?.... I have the second length @ 1600mm to play with as well... I have a 6 blade and a 9 blade adustable pitch industrial aluminum fan hubs to mount blades on to , by cutting back the origional aluminum blades and mounting these or whatever to the cut back stubs.. The 6 can run 3 or 6 while the 9 can be 3 or 5 . These hubs have a 1" taper lock which loc straight onto a F&P shaft..The gen is going to be a twin stator , 3p or 7p I haven't decided that part as yet as I am consentrating more on the mechanicial design at first , as it appears the jury is still out on the 7p outputs . Any sugestions on what I am building would be appreciated as I am on a learning curve with all the aspects of these F&P wind generators . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hello Phill, sounds like you have hit the jackpot with that sort of pipe and the adjustable hub spider.( some plastic is too flexy) The thickness wil overcome the flexing and hail damage a fair bit ,plus you'll be able to give the leading and trailing edges a rounded and faired profile. I'm fairly certain I saw somewhere a method of determining the pattern for cutting these pipes--someone out there will have a better memory than me-matter of fact ,all.lol. Remembered,,Matt down melbourne way was the guy that showed me ,,,but I haven't seen him around for a long time ..... Where are you ,Mattt, we need you.. Bruce Bushboy |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Phill, Have used the 10" stuff, which, from memory is only 11mm thick. I believe it is used here as the replacement of the old cast-iron water pipes with the belled ends. My stuff is PVC; from what I learned on the Fieldlines site, this ABS is better that the PVC pipe I am using. From my experience 1400 or 1500mm blade length (3 m dia.) will turn a cogging F&P OK, this is also the experience of famous F&P&PVC man Mark Latham of Adelaide. If it turns two cogging F&Ps, I cannot tell. As ecoinnovation was or is selling F&Ps with a "floating hub" to get around cogging and not knowing how they do it, I also set up a spring-loaded floating hub. The shaft is 25.0mm but the "imperial" pipe I am using has an inside dia. of 41.9 mm, so I just filed it out to 42.0 to fit the metric ball bearings (2 x) of size 25x42 and attached a flange to the pipe. The flange then attaches to the blades via two flat bars. Have not tested it thouroughly but the hope with a floating hub is the seperation of the alternator from the prop, so the prop starts turning and gets a bit of momentum going, then a bolt on the hub hits a spring-loaded lever, which then turns the alt. As long as there is initial separation between hub and alt, the thing will overcome the cog. Best separation is one full rotation before it engages. Hope, hope! You may have a lot of inertia with your thicker ABS, more blades and therefore also lower RPM. Suspect you may have to gear up the RPMs. Let us know how you are getting there. My suggestion is then to paint the prop after priming the plastic with a primer that sticks on plastic. The UV may even damage ABS, I do not know. It will certainly harden the PVC I am using; it is not uPVC. Regards, Dominic Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Phill, Just be aware that pipe blades are not the real McCoy. Mine do seem to stall without a load on and do not seem to overspeed because of it. So I am even wondering if I have to furl in high winds using my idea of a folding rudder. I may have to furl simply to stop the tower from folding but not, I suspect, because of overspeeding. Other contributors have spoken out against pipe blades on Fieldlines. Shaping wooden blades is certainly harder, but also leads to more aerodynamically correct blades. My wife does not give me enough time for my hobby, sigh, sigh! dominic Anyway, pipe blades are easily made and are cheap. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Dominic, Thanks for the info on pvc blades , I am going to take this piece home to brisbane and start cutting them , I'll give Bruce a look at it and see what he thinks . I had thought of doing something like the floating hub you mentioned using a light pull start spring of a wipper snipper or something similar as giving the clog a bump start could make it easier to get things turning . Just finnished making two tools to remove the bearing hub to the correct size to fit in a piece of 3 1/2" gal pipe in one hit . Then fase of the seal end to leave the bearing protruding to fit 2nd stator . Anyway I"ll see how these abs blades look when i start cutting , its definatly harder material than Pvc , but it might be a while untill I am abel to see how they go. Are you abel to adjust blade angle ? ; ; ; PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Phill, No, I cannot adjust blade angle as I did not use a pipe from hub to prop. Have seen pipes used and U-bolts on hub and prop. With such a system it is then possible to turn the prop. I have used two flats to connect the blade to the hub, which is just a flange. Flange to floating hub(pipe) connection is a tapered BSP thread. Being able to adjust blade angle is a good idea, greater angle of attack means more starting torque BUT lower RPM and vice versa. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| pablodiablo Newbie  Joined: 04/07/2007 Location: Posts: 2 |
Phill I have read that the diametre of the pipe should be 1/5 that of the length e.g. 10cm diametre 50cm blade length. Pablo. |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1449 |
Well for fun i made a little stepper genny as per Glenn's on the project page. The wife reckoned when it was going flat out it sounded like a train. anyway as we currently have gale winds I went up to see how it was going and I thought man it's going that fast I cant see the blades buton closer inspection there wasnt any blades they must of been going that quick the pvc couldn't hack the pace and snapped. Cheers Bryan  |
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Bushman Regular Member  Joined: 24/04/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 41 |
Hi Phill or Dominic Have either of you got any sketches of the floating hub/whipper-snipper concepts? If you look at the thread on this forum dealing with cogging, you'll see we are chasing the same objective - in my case I was considering a computer fan that required the slighest breeze to turn, then gearing it up to the main rotor to overcome the initial cog. Your ideas sounds better Cheers Alan |
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| adelaide Regular Member Joined: 24/03/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 46 |
just a tip for the fifth time, I have made a lot of mills and you can fix a problem 2 ways. Usually I think outside the box and fix it on the prop side, as I have done for 4 or 5 years now . Make a lot bigger root area near the hub ,at the cord. And at the angle the blade calculator suggests( say altons ) recommends , I have no decoged mills and live in low wind area , it works ! I have even had a 2 to 1 ratio mill with 2 fps on it 1 direct 1 on 2 to 1 ratio none de cogged . with a big root area it starts all of that with the clutch part locked up , please try this idea it is frustrating watching you guys stuck at that easy part when you should be gearing say a 100 p to get 112 amps instead. lets Make some progress. Simply test cut a piece of sheet metal (say side fp wash machine) or curve a sheet of plastic in the oven or maybe an fp bowl) triangle with 1 foot sides and mount (important liquid nail and screw every 5 cm )along leading edge curl forward (front of prop thicker to screw to and misses pole)angle is very inportnt help to make progres or radio and vitamin b |
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whirlybird Newbie Joined: 08/02/2006 Location: Posts: 27 |
Thank you aaron for the info in the above post It seems to me that a lot of these people can not see the forest for the trees. I have seen you post on this subject before and frankly I am amazed no one seems to have followed through with it. Trust me gentlemen I have seen this idea working with my own eyes it is so simple but it works. Well thats my 2 cents worth Rant over. 
P.S if you wish to talk about this subject in person you can contact me on Yahoo voice chat.(lafoot 2003) I am because I am.I am not always right but often I am. |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Bushman, Will try to get the photos onto this site of my idea of the floating hub. However, keep adelaide's suggestion in mind to add on a Jerry-style (see fieldlines site) root extension using sheet metal to give it extra starting torque. You should find the photos on the Fieldlines site, if you look up domwild ('s)files. Not wishing to criticise, but if those who solved the cogging problem (without rounding the poles) of the F&P had given the world their performance figures for their single or dual mills, then we all would be wiser and had followed that path. After all, everybody follows the gurus, like no longer making scoraigh's brake drum alternators but dual axials nowadays, etc. I followed ecoinnovations (guru!) idea of a floating hub, which was or is still being sold. And he makes the performance figures available for all F&P models available. He suggests rounding the poles with an admitted drop in power. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| Bushman Regular Member Joined: 24/04/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 41 |
You may be grumpy about repeating what you have advised before, but in my case, I have been involved in this project for only about 3 months and can assure you I have never seen any of your previous postings. As for "not seeing the wood for the trees" I have been over the backshed and other articles time and time again without seeing any mention of you, your advice or the website you now quote. Frankly, if you have a problem, talk to the website administrator about the organisation of information, which is random to put it mildly - don't take it out on someone who is also trying to help - as you will concede if you have read any of my posts in other threads Alan |
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| adelaide Regular Member Joined: 24/03/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 46 |
hi hear is couple links and pic i did a while ago may help/http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/forum1/forum_posts. asp?TID=260&KW=adelaide some root extenshon bits a clear cuved in oven plastic look hard / why setle for lees power filing them down when u can make a adapted prop for full power http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/forum1/forum_posts.asp?T ID=170&KW=adelaide is a few on hear and feldlines under adelaide name to look threw hopw helps and i would have thrown th the f ps away with out thoes bigger root /hub bits help to make progres or radio and vitamin b |
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Highlander Senior Member  Joined: 03/10/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 266 |
Hi Adelaide, you said "you should be gearing say a 100 p to get 112 amps instead" Are you referring to the eco inn table? If so I think they are flawed. I had problems getting that from a petrol engine driving a 100p. I emailed ecoinn and he replied that a 100p should give 80amps at 1500 rpm. So if you want 112 rpm this is the theoretical maximum MY 80p on a petrol gen does over 80 amps when the table states a max of 42 amps. So the tables are Flawed By the way I saw your mills and they look excellent. I'm interested in how you triggered the second one to kick in. Central Victorian highlands |
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