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faroun Regular Member Joined: 18/09/2008 Location: Posts: 62
Posted: 11:48pm 01 Feb 2009
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this project is for fun and for the challange.
my idea to create a wave like wing that when facing the wind it will rise and once on the top i will have amechanizem that will change the direction of the wing to face downward and so on, up and down. the question is
Will It Fly....give me your thoughts.
regards
Many Ideas One Brain.
http://www.wrapwind.com
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 04:20am 02 Feb 2009
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The old style ceiling fans, like you see in movies made when the Brits were in India look like this.
Gordon.become more energy aware
KiwiJohn Guru Joined: 01/12/2005 Location: New ZealandPosts: 691
Posted: 06:05am 02 Feb 2009
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Yes, it will work. There was a water pumper for developing countries that worked like that and there used to be the design on a UN website but I cant find it now.
Gill Senior Member Joined: 11/11/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 669
Posted: 10:08am 02 Feb 2009
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John,
I disagree with your assessment. The thrust of the first 1/2 up stroke is equal to the drag of the 2nd 1/2 up stroke. The resultant will be 0 force per 1/2 stroke. So, as presented, it will not work. Perhaps your UN water pump had more sophisticated design features built in?
Edited by Gill 2009-02-03was working fine... til the smoke got out.
Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 01:26pm 02 Feb 2009
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Hi faroun,
You really need to show a mechanism that alters the angles, so we can see. I think you mean that the blue bar is actually a wing section and the angle of attack is altered, to change the lift.
Gordon.become more energy aware
KiwiJohn Guru Joined: 01/12/2005 Location: New ZealandPosts: 691
Posted: 06:00pm 02 Feb 2009
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Gill, as Gordon suggested, the water pumper described on the UN site had a wing that altered its angle according to its position in the cycle.
faroun Regular Member Joined: 18/09/2008 Location: Posts: 62
Posted: 02:57am 04 Feb 2009
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ok, i am slow at this, but i will draw the mechanism that shows the pitch change and i will post it soon.
regardsMany Ideas One Brain.
http://www.wrapwind.com
faroun Regular Member Joined: 18/09/2008 Location: Posts: 62
Posted: 01:28am 06 Feb 2009
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hi there guys,
John check it out i managed to show the mechanizim on how it is supposed to fly...i gusse...
the question is,..is it worth building just for fun?!?!
what do you think?
regards Many Ideas One Brain.
http://www.wrapwind.com
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 02:39am 06 Feb 2009
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Hi faroun,
This is not as I imagined, but would probably still work. You may be able to use magnets as latching devices to hold the vane during the power strokes, a bit like cupboard door latches. Automatic furling if the wind is too strong with the magnets unable to hold the vane. Gravity would come into play and return the unit to the bottom of the cycle and reset the action.
I cannot see this being more than a talking point though.
Gordon.become more energy aware
faroun Regular Member Joined: 18/09/2008 Location: Posts: 62
Posted: 03:17am 06 Feb 2009
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i am glade to suprize you with my crazy howto, thanks for the extra tips, you could be right, regarding it is just a rendering. i just need to get unlazy and start building the sucker...lets wait and see what others might think....thanksMany Ideas One Brain.
http://www.wrapwind.com
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 03:20am 06 Feb 2009
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Looks like fun, you may power a few leds... well .... maybe, but a talking point for sure.
........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
KiwiJohn Guru Joined: 01/12/2005 Location: New ZealandPosts: 691
Posted: 07:13am 06 Feb 2009
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As I said earlier, this used to be on a UN web site as a practical water pumper.
I dont see that it has to be vertical in operation, if you could see the force with which our front door slams in a gentle breeze you could do a lot more than power a few LEDs.
Seems to me it would be good for a situation where a tower is out of the question.
Someone should make one!
Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510
Posted: 07:54am 06 Feb 2009
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[quote=KiwiJohn]if you could see the force with which our front door slams in a gentle breeze you could do a lot more than power a few LEDs.[/quote]
True. But your frontdoor isn't connected to a generator and being loaded. The frontdoor behaves more like an unloaded windturbine in a runaway situation. It's important to distinguish between energy and power.
To the OP: Don't want to sound too harsh and rain on your parade, but this entire contraption looks silly and overcomplicated to me. I count 6 pivot points/bearings, and a belt. Not sure why you are wanting to convert linear motion into rotary motion, when it'd be much simpler to start with rotary motion in the first place. I expect it'll be noisy too, as the flap moves over twice each cycle. The repeated up and down acceleration will be hard on the mechanism as well (think 'reciprocating engine' vs. 'gasturbine').
But if you really believe in this idea then definitely go for it and build one, then report back here. Should make for an interesting story once it's finished and working.
Peter.
KiwiJohn Guru Joined: 01/12/2005 Location: New ZealandPosts: 691
Posted: 08:01am 06 Feb 2009
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Peter, if I am not mistaken the first recorded example of a windmill was a revolving door contraption used to grind grain in ancient Afghanistan.
Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510
Posted: 08:11am 06 Feb 2009
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[quote=KiwiJohn]if I am not mistaken the first recorded example of a windmill was a revolving door contraption used to grind grain in ancient Afghanistan.[/quote]
True KiwiJohn. But we have evolved a bit since then...
Edit: ...and notice how even those people started with rotary motion in the first place, not linear motion...Edited by Dinges 2009-02-07
KiwiJohn Guru Joined: 01/12/2005 Location: New ZealandPosts: 691
Posted: 08:25am 06 Feb 2009
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Peter, I have been to Afghanistan and I could not say for sure if that is an old picture or one that reflect current practice!
However, as far as I can tell such devices are drag machines and as far as total power goes very inefficient. As you will doubtless know efficiency and effectiveness are not quite the same thing and a big revolving door, or flapping wing, system might generate about the same power whatever the wind speed?
I guess the flapping wing could be made more efficient with a suitable aerofoil section.
Your comments regarding complexity are valid but in the case of the water pumper I saw described it was not so complex at all as the arm acted directly on the pump rod.
John
Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510
Posted: 08:45am 06 Feb 2009
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[quote=KiwiJohn]but in the case of the water pumper I saw described it was not so complex at all as the arm acted directly on the pump rod.[/quote]
Converting linear motion into rotary motion (or reverse) isn't very hard to do normally. It was used in reciprocating steamengines as well. However, in that case the linear motion is longitudinal, whereas in Faroun's case it's transversal. And that case is a bit harder, requiring an extra linkage...
As to the efficiency... I was wondering how much mechanical power the VAWT pictured above could generate, and how it would compare to a modern HAWT. An inefficient contraption can still be very effective though. I bet that mill was pretty good at milling grain.Edited by Dinges 2009-02-07
faroun Regular Member Joined: 18/09/2008 Location: Posts: 62
Posted: 11:10pm 06 Feb 2009
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like I stated at the begining, it was for the fun and for the challenge.
John, sees the faults in my design and yet he recommend to build it.
peter sees the faults but tells me it is waste of time.
it is funny to say I agree with both, because part of me thinks it is a long shot but the other side of the brain said to build it and try.
Silly maybe, but with a bit of love it might work!
thanks to the both of you and many more for your input comments, it is all about the challenge.
thanks again
farounMany Ideas One Brain.
http://www.wrapwind.com
niall1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2008 Location: IrelandPosts: 331
Posted: 12:44am 07 Feb 2009
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even thinking about the the front door generating electricity ..thats enough for me .....go for it ..i think there was some ocean wave generator experements a bit like this done before ...Edited by niall1 2009-02-08niall
KiwiJohn Guru Joined: 01/12/2005 Location: New ZealandPosts: 691
Posted: 02:00am 07 Feb 2009
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You are right Niall, the challenges of harnessing ocean waves ( are you thinking of Salter's ducks?) are quite like those of a flapping wing wind machine.
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Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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