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Forum Index : Windmills : Undergearing + Multipal Stators
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Hybrid Newbie  Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Considering low wind areas, I'm thinking about gearing. If I underdrive @ 4:1 to reduce the load, & then drive multipal stators (say 12) @ 2:1, it = 6x the output compared to driving 1 stator. I'm just trying to apply the old block 'n tackle method here. Maybe 12 stators running at 1.5:1 = 4.5x output might be a better drive. Star to > Delta switching might be possable toooo. Ok fellas, I have round shoulders & I'm ready to be shot down in flames now  Pros vs Cons > Here <
Cheers ! --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi hybrid, yes, there are many flaws in this approach. 12 stators will have 12x cogging. [you might be able to offset stators to reduce some cogging] even with reduction gearing of 4:1, this is still 3x, and this assumes no gearing losses. There might be all sorts of wiring options, but the mechanical aspects would be huge. Probably better to just make a heap of individual units and have a wind farm. Surely after the first couple, the rest could be made in your sleep. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5116 |
Instead of using a gear reduction, I think it would be easier to make a slower running high torque turbine. I use a 6 blade 2.4 meter turbine on a dual stator. The turbine has enough torque to overcome any cogging, and even in light winds the windmill will make an amp or two. The turbine is limited, it stalls in stronger winds ( dives? ), so the windmill wont make much over 15 amps. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Hi GWatPE. I apreciate your reply btw. If that is your concern, the individual stators would have to be offset by keying in 12th's to neutralise the rejection & replusion of the fields. I'm a persistant bugga ;] Hmm Magnets aplied as well. Don't start me now. GWatPE I'm still playing with the magnetic motor btw. Watch this youtube clip GWatPE. This revs it's t_ts off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_41btVawMc Cheers ! --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru  Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
I have been playing around for quite some time with gearing--- It works ,,but,,, you have to have the wind at a reasonable strength. I used a timing belt drive at 2:1 ratio ,,was very good in moderate to strong ind ,,but the belt came off and broke ,,you have to accurately line up the ribbed wheels and attach side cheeks to them ,,imho. I looked up my diary yesterday ,and back when this gearing was working ,I saw and noted over 700 watts from a single stator into 24v bank .. I'm not giving up on this gearing idea ,,but will save and incorporate it into my 15 foot big blades with well installed belt ,Etc.. and a disc brake ,, In cidently,,I think I'm the only one that has tried gearing -----I would like to hear from any other 's that have given it a go. Cogging,,,, the new stator /rotor that has recently been released by F&P has no cogging .. this combination is excellant and my mill with this set-up on goes almost 24/7 in hardly any breeze at all-no output ,mind you ,,.but nice to watch .. Bruce Bushboy |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Hi Bruce. Good to see someone testing gearing. When others use dual stators, do they offset them to avoid cogging ? Thanks Gizmo. I refer drives to gear drivelines. Cheers ! --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
--Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Anthony, Bruce has not had much success with the rewiring of new F&P's yet. If you have to buy many new F&P units, then it may be better to just buy a chinese mill of around 1kW. It may be simpler and cheaper to build a twin rotor axial flux unit. With both these alternatives, at least there will be no cogging issues. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Hi Gordon. Thanks for the tips regarding F&Ps. I'm very close with the magnetic motor. The reason for the gearing question was mainly a sugestion for windmill gearing for this windmill section of the forum. The undergearing also applies to my magnetic motor. I've decided to run more grunt to overcome stalling. I will run 4 magnetic motors in a square config all geared to run in 1 direction. 2 of them to be moved sideways to get off the overlap to stop the thing & to be able to controll the speed by % of overlap. They will all be offset by 2mm to put them off centre as well as the multipal rows of magnets will be offset to cancell the pulse/cogging. This gives me 8 end shafts to drive off with less of a stalling factor by having them all help each other repell. If all goes well, I will explain it in more detail. Cheers ! --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Hybrid, my mind boggles after reading the above.  That sounds mighty complicated, hope it all works as expected - can't wait to see your 'detailed' explanation.
Tinker  Klaus |
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Loomberah Regular Member  Joined: 11/06/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 43 |
I've done it, and given up! The small sprockets wore out within a month or 2 on my 3.6m diameter home made blades. I had them geared up about 5:1 and saw up to 35A @30V in a strong wind. I have also tried double V belts, but they needed constant adjustment (ie ~weekly) and continual application of spray to stop them slipping. I was using a large 24V automotive alternator. Gordon Loomberah weather +solar&UV, astronomy, photography, organic farm |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Very complicated Tinker. I have no idea what revs or HP this will make at full oberlap. About $2,500 in material. Labour is free. A joint venture with my young nephew. 12 rows of 28 pairs of magnets firing every 2.5mm of rotation. 275mm dia x 480mm lg x 10mm wall thickness 316 s/s Armature 672- 15mm dia x 15mm lg N45 Rare Earth Magnets. I'm expecting No pulse at all with these incroments of firing sequence. After the 336th fire, it repeats the firing from the start again. Continuous. Temporarily I'll mechanicaly move the stator for neutral. Cheers ! Can a Mod remove the multipal posts please. --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
--Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hi loomberah,,(Gordon)., Pic of my geared hub ,,worked well ,,800 watts approx on one occasion that I was watching . But the belt was not perfectly lined-up ,,so it "run" off and got stripped of it's ribs.Next time side cheeks will be fitted to the gearing cogs.. Thanks, for your reply ,,it proves that high output can be achieved with gearing in a strong wind . Mine was neo-conversion rotor,2:1 gearing ,very strong wind, -It was a bit scary ,,but a hoot to watch.. 
Bushboy |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Anthony, Is the design similar to that demonstrated on the link in the thread above. I presume this design is not a pure magnetic motor. The firing that you mention is current passing through coils, no doubt, electro magnets in the stator. This design will probably produce a lot of torque when the stator is fully within the rotor, given the large amount of permanent magnet material. I think there will be much wasted flux when the stator is withdrawn. The power will be proportional to the RPM and inversely proportional to the field alignments. There are probably a lot of readers with more technical info that can shed more light on exactly what happens. Good luck with your testing. .. .. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Hi Gordon. The link is an example of sideways movement to align full overlap. But it uses variable coil power. My motor has no coils or power fed to it. Free Perpetual. I'm staggering the alignment of 12 magnets in the space of 30mm. 28 of each. In 30mm it repells 336 times. The ping pong staggered sequence is what will cause the mags to stay in alignment. I think I'm on a winner. The weight & centrifugal force & staggered alignment combined, will overcome any atraction either side of the firing. All the mags will offset to face the rotation direction. I'm shielding either side as well by the recessing into the s/s. The 1mm air gap tollerance 336 times will have to be adjustable on 2 bearings. The sequence I'm using actualy starts firing more offset at 1 end of the 480mm. It can be altered from that, but if this has big hp, a gearbox would be adapted to that end, where technicaly it has more strength. I know a lot of people play games with baby magnets to prove they can spin a cd etc. This isn't a toy project. A lot of acurate alignment drilling going into this. Fitting of the external mags will be done in the neutral locked position. Move the stator sideways & the staggered sequence will jump into place. If it can't push a 2 tone car etc, it will surely drive as a big gen. That's the aim of the project anyway Gordon. Cheers ! --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| windman Newbie Joined: 02/12/2006 Location: Posts: 19 |
you can't be serious |
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| Loomberah Regular Member Joined: 11/06/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 43 |
Somebody please, tell 'im he's dreamin' Adding more magnets and coils wont get you any closer to breaking the laws of physics... Gordon Loomberah weather +solar&UV, astronomy, photography, organic farm |
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| Hybrid Newbie Joined: 05/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
So laws are not to be broken Loomberah. What coils added? Light atraction & multipal repels. You are a sheep. Bye! --Anthony Petrol FWD & Electric RWD |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Anthony, I have seen many demonstrations of supposed perpetual motion machines. Indeed, the axial flux alternator I use on my mill has electrical conversion efficiency close to unity in a small section of the power rating. I did think it was over unity, as the unit did take over half an hour to slow down when the power leads were disconnected when operated as a motor generator. I was not able to subtantiate this with perpetual motion though. The CD-type toy machines do not exhibit perpetual motion either. The relevant laws of physics relate to energy not being able to be created or distroyed and being able to be converted from one form to another and conservation of energy. Do you think that energy in your machine is converted from an unmeasurable source to provide useful shaft work? The best we can probably hope for is a machine that only can convert a relatively low grade energy source into a more useful one. A windmill and solar panels do this, as do many other mechanical and solid state inventions. If your machine does indeed exhibit perpetual motion[continue to operate for over a week say when not connected to a known power source] and you are able to publish some data, then it is possible government or commercial players will attempt to influence what you do. Much of the information that was published on the internet, when the internet was young is not available now. There are probably many conspiracy theories on this topic. Good luck with your testing, and I hope you are on a winner. .. .. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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