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Forum Index : Windmills : winddata = energy but how much?
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KarlJ Guru  Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
2008-10-12_185248_Sept_Oct_wind_data.rar I'm really intersted in a 5KW wind turbine grid connected. windenergychina have a thing called the windworker which I can have landed with a 13m tower for about $6K USD, ontop of this I will use a powerone gridconnect inverter ($2000 USD cheaper than the windyboy and better conversion efficiency)for about $4500 USD. obviously some installation costs to be added... The catch ....is my site windy enough? So I bought and installed a winddatalogger (APRS world) a months worth of data I have attached (all I have so far) so the question is how to I translate this into KW/Hrs yielded? see the output curve of the turbine attached. 2008-10-12_190706_output.rar I'm sure one of you smart people can get some useful macro for excel so it will do the work. fingers crossed, have to justify it to dad (now retired to farm) to spend the $25K. Luck favours the well prepared |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
.RAR files. RAR compression software is not freeware. Can't help if can't read the file. Gordon. what is wrong with .zip become more energy aware |
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Bolty Regular Member  Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
It is a pity that you did not post your data as a .zip file, as Gordon is the expert with calcs such as this! I have done a very quick rough and ready addition to your spreadsheet. It is by no means accurate, as I have used a very simplistic model for the power function. It does not accurately match your generator data, nor does it allow for the reduced power after furling, nor again does it accurately represent the power below threshhold. The very simplified function that I have used is: P = 6 * (V^3) This model very approximately matches your proposed generator output. This gives the power in watts for a particular wind velocity. Converting this to KWh requires dividing by 60*1000 for 1 minute time increments and 12*1000 for 5 minute increments. The total KWh produced is at the bottom of the column. I have made no attempt to present the data neatly in appealing format. Time could be spent with better modelling of the generator output, but it is my opinion that this would be of dubious value! This is because of several reasons. 1. The sampling rate of your wind data is inconsistent 2. The sampling rate being an average over a minute. is not a reflection of the instantaneous power that summates to the total collected energy in the minute. 4. Being a cubic relationship between wind velocity and power for the pre-furling point, the average velocity can be very misleading. As an example, if your wind velocity was 0 for 45 secs of a minute and the last 15 seconds was 10 m/s, the average would be 2.5 m/s. Using the average value from the graph would indicate a power of 0 (less than 3 m/s) However the modelling function would suggest a power generation of 6000 watts in the 15 secs, which is a Kwh figure of (6/60)/4 = .025 Kwh 5. It is impossible to estimate the amount of power not collected due to the inverter having to re-synchronize after NO wind periods. Of course the attached spreadsheet overstates the actual power because of this fact. 6. The weight of the blades will effect the transient response of the turbine. This means that the actual collected energy will be less. Remember that your anemometer has much less inertia, and responds more quickly than a large turbine. I hope that most of what I have presented is somewhere near the mark! I am no expert in this area, and I am sure that others can probably more clearly give you some advice. Here is the excel file in zip format with the added calcs! 2008-10-13_011136_KWH_Sept_Oct_wind_data.zip |
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| Bolty Regular Member Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
By the way, I hope that my attempts to analyze your wind data does not in any way discourage you from looking further into wind energy. To be strictly quantitative with your data is not really possible. However, other people who have had years of experience, may be able to subjectively look at your data and have a reasonably accurate gut feeling about the viability of your project. I will add that Gordon has taught me that wind data acquisition is very inaccurate with long sample times. If you were to collect wind data every 1/10 second, you may be able to estimate more accurately the power produced. However as mentioned above, there are many factors that effect the accuracy of the calcs. You may also realize that there are not that many grid-connect systems around at this stage. Last week I installed a 1Kw Chinese turbine with an Australian commercial turbine controller and grid connect inverter. So far it has produced only 7 Kwh in 10 days. In that time we have had 2 very strong wind days, with gusts of over 20 m/s. Whilst these bursts are high in energy, where I am, they tend to be of limited duration. Unfortunately, most of the time in these 10 days, there has been winds of less than 3 m/s. Therefore I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it will take many years to repay my investment. It is impossible to put a figure on that time right now! However the point is that I did not do it for economic reasons. The satisfaction that one gets from seeing the turbine spinning in the wind is captivating to me. It will also produce some "free" energy now, and it is just one small contribution to energy awareness. It is also a most fascinating hobby and interest for me! The combination of mathematical, mechanical and electronic areas means that there are always some modifications that can be made. Already I am looking at making some new blades for my turbine, to increase the low-end performance. Gordon has made incredible developments in the electronics area with maximizers, boosters etc. Good luck with your possible project! Bolty |
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| Bolty Regular Member Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
One other thing! Make sure that you check that any grid connect inverter that you contemplate is certified for use in Australia. Just because it has US, German etc compliance, does not mean that it is suitable for use in Australia! Any inverter connected to the grid in Australia, has to have been tested here and approved for use here! Here is a link to an appropriate certification explanation and a list of approved inverters. http://www.bcse.org.au/default.asp?id=233 Hope that helps! Bolty |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
thanks Bolty, 150kWhr for 2 months for a $25,000 investment. This would be a poor investment on economic grounds. If the utility paid $3/kWhr, this may be viable, with a payback of around 10 years. I recorded wind data for a year at my site, and the average was around 3.5m/s. mine is just viable as I spent a lot less money. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Thanks for your efforts. So should I keep logging at 5min intervals or go back to 1 min intervals? 150Kw/hr is very dissappointing i agree. Bolty How much did your 1kw system end up costing? (if you dont mind) I do agree its not for economic reasons but on the same token the grid connect gear is a fair chunk of coin and thus bigger should=better! Bad news is that $25K gets you (easily) a 2x 1KW solar arrays mounted on 2 axis trackers that will average 15KW/HR a day =450kw/hr a month and to boot the govt will be paying 0.60c kw/hr for anything going back into the grid (solar systems upto 2KW only) thus pay back here is going to win and the only turbine I might get is something smaller say 500W that I can some-how pair with the one inverter. Otherwise the equipment is prohibitivly expensive. Luck favours the well prepared |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
sorry about the rar file, thought everybody had it. just go to www.mininova.com search for the software, should be able to get a "demo" version for free. download it with Utorrent. Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Bolty Regular Member Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
Hi Karl I imported the 2.7 m diam 1Kw turbine and 6m tower from China all up for AU$1200 (including Customs agent fees) Interestingly the freight from Shanghai to Adelaide was only $20. The major cost was the Latronics Inverter and controller ($2200) Total cost to completion including a 3m tower extension, concrete etc was just under $4000. At that price, I could buy approx 20000 kwh of power from the grid. Assuming that the equipment has a 10 year life expectancy, this means break even needs to produce 2000 kwh per year, or around 5 kwh per day. At this stage I cannot see this being possible. However as explained, this is not why I have established the system. Your comparison of wind with solar is fairly clear. I have a 1000 watt solar system, and so far it clearly out performs the turbine. My location is not as good for wind generation as Gordon's, even though we are only about 5km apart. Hopefully we may get more power in the Summer. Time will tell! |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
got some pics? & some specs? ie what voltage does the turbine make? what inverter the PVE 1200? did you do the direct connect to the inverter? I imagine the cost you did, would hope that with some TLC it should last 20 years. After all its a "project", like buying a Lexus, nice but boring ie never gives trouble! tweaking of the blades etc all good fun at that size. without grid connect it would be like pissing into a fan, have to be able to do someting useful with the power or we are contributing to greenhouse emissions instead of reducing them. Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Bolty Regular Member Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
The turbine is a nominal 48 volt which matches the PVE 1200 very well. The controller is the recently released Latronics TC48. This couples well with the PVE and applies PWM braking at 75 volts, which is very close to the turbine producing the inverter power limit of 1200 watts. So far I have been very pleased with the controller. It has a large inbuilt bank of capacitors of 0.1 Farad. This has the effect of keeping the system ready and it seems to be able to hold the inverter synchronized to the grid for up to 15 mins, without the turbine generating the necessary 55 volts to input power. I have observed no wind activity for 10 mins, then a wind gust feeds to the inverter immediately. The $2238 cost for the inverter included the controller and the Latronics weatherproof box. I have downloaded some pictures that hopefully come through OK! Cheers! Bolty 
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Ken. Newbie  Joined: 05/10/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 13 |
Great set up.....I've had some experience with Latronics home inverters and found them great. The grid feed version you have sounds awesome. I'm curious...did the wind gennie come with noise readings in Db in it's specifications? I hear (no pun intended) that the HAWTs are pretty noisy..in particular the small ones...I was wondering about the larger ones like yours... Cheers  "Imagination is greater than knowledge" Albert Einstien |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
OK i've had some time to do some further analysis of the data and..... if I remove everything before 3m/s and do some wishful thinking on the peak measured windspeed, ie apply the formula to the peak value, then remove everything over 12m/s then the output for the month ends up around 140KW/hr for average and 400KW/hr for peak. so in conclusion the data is inconclusive(I hope) I will go back to measuring in 30sec intervals its not like I'm collecting too much data the 5min intervals end up as 18K files per day so 180K a day is still going to take a really long time to fill a 1Gig card. I like your setup, appears to be along the right track does the 3phase from the turbine get rectified at the LATRONICS box or on the turbine? how long is the cable? We (dad) signed up today for 2KW worth of monocrystaline panels on 2 trackers, figure a month for the rebate to be approved and another month for them to get it all in. I cant wait for that one! Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Bolty Regular Member Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
Hi Ken! The noise levels are really low. I have no dB readings!Our bedroom is only 4 metres from the tower, and we can only ever hear a very slight hum at a certain rpm. The wind noise associated with the turbine is virtually inaudible, except when the wind changes direction when a feathering type of sound can be heard. When the electronic brake activates, it produces a very short but pronounced vibration through the pole for about 1 second. It is however not loud enough to wake us! My wife was a little concerned about the location initially, but neither of us are effected by any noise.(No we are not deaf) KarlJ Glad to see that you have been able to modify the spreadsheet to take into account the low and high limits. I suspect that you should limit at 10 m/s, as furling should occur somewhere near that value. However with your data, it is not going to make a great deal of difference to the total Kwh. A good idea to go back to 30 sec intervals! The 3 phase bridge rectifier is in the Latronics box, and should be able to be seen in the photo at the bottom left, below the circuit breakers that act as a brake. The cable came with the system, and is about 4mm2 copper. It is about 10 metres long, and I have not yet cut it the shortest possible length (to minimize losses) I have observed the turbine producing 1200 watts at the point of furling! Overall I have been very pleased with the quality of the whole system. Everything is very well built and overkill for strength. As an example, the provided guy wire cables are 8mm galv. I trust that your 2 Kw system will soon be providing clean green energy! Good luck! Bolty |
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| Robb Senior Member Joined: 01/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
xls is also more readable than xlsx  |
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| Zeusmorg Newbie Joined: 29/11/2007 Location: Posts: 5 |
By the way there are several free programs that will open .rar files, i prefer 7zip. |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
went up on the weekend, changed logging interval to 30seconds, expect more data in a couple of weeks. BTW winddatalogger II, I got is great, will log data from upto three sites, temperature, wind direction, wind speed, battery voltage (or system voltage when using plug pack)can get solar radiation sensors too. logs to SD cards. Was the most reasonable unit on the market that does these things and was about $450 delivered to Aus if anyone is interested. www.aprsworld.com or www.winddatalogger.com Luck favours the well prepared |
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